Wow, I am so disappointed. You know what I mean. That last BBT3 game on Thursday. I didn't even play or anything. Just watched from the rail. We've talked about this before. The chops. But this one takes the cake.
When I first read that Swimmom95 not only gave up her 2:1 lead for half the money, but then also gave away the TOC seat to ScottMc, I was sure she was his backer. I mean, what other reason would she have for doing that? But then I read that Scott had a different backer, so that theory is out the window. And I have nothing against either of these players. But this was beyond silly.
I have always been a little suspicious of the blogger games as I am of online poker in general. Now before you all get your panties in a bunch, I am not making any accusations or pointing fingers at anyone. But this last example just makes me go hmmmm.... I read Scott's blog where he gave a detailed history of his poker playing and why he has decided to hang up his chips. Since I knew I was probably not going to be able to play much in the BBT3, even I felt like backing him. But I don't have the roll for it and figured there will be plenty of people who would jump at the opportunity before me. People who met him and prayed for his parlays on bended knee.
But what happens if backer and backed player end up playing each other? Do they soft play? Do they chop? Do we even know, since most backing deals are hush hush?
Remember that big blogger cash game where Waffles got a buy-in from someone at the same table? How does that play out? I think I know that in that case the gloves were off, but who knows what other deals are done on girlie chat, behind the scenes? With random online players it's hard to tell, but with a group of people who play together 4 times a week? Who the hell knows?
Speaking of girlie chat, since a lot of people know each other personally at this point, what sort of information makes its way from IM to IM? During hands? I know we all want to think that we hold ourselves to a higher standard and blah blah blah, but outside of the fine ATL bloggers I have met and had over to my house on several occasions, how do I know who to trust? Because I know them from their blogs? We all remember how Joey The Chips swindled slb159, right? I almost fell into that trap myself. Was this a single incident?
We sort of know what the cliques are. We kind of know who the buddies are. Which players get invited by someone else. Do we know more? I'd like to think we do, but in reality we have no clue.
Will lucko go for a third TOC seat if he's heads up with LJ? Or will he give it away? I'd like to think he makes her win it and doesn't soft play at all.
Does Pauly sit out and give the seat to change100 since he's probably going to have to cover the event himself? Does change do the same for Pauly?
Do the Riverchasers hold hands at the virtual tables? Does lucko's gang of aggro monkeys fight it out to the death?
Do the husband/wife teams sitting in the same house have an advantage? How are they even able to log on from the same IP with two clients?
Once again, I'm barely even participating in the BBT3 and I want to say that I am naive and trusting and hope that we are all honest about this. I am not pointing fingers or naming names or calling anyone out.
But can anyone be totally sure? Completely?
Backers, Girlie Chat, Cliques, Buddies. Is this some minor (or major) form of collusion? Stop and ponder this dilemma for a second and tell me what you think in the comments.
Sunday, March 23, 2008
BBT3? Chop-suey?
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27 comments:
If you and I are HU, I will crush you without giving it a thought!
There are a decent amount of people that I would make a deal with before going after my third TOC seat. I wouldnt make as bad of a deal as swimmon did tho.
I worry about the same thing.
I've also played a tournament or two with my wife online as well. I know how we play, we are both super competitive. I actually watched her final table from across the room, with my headset on, the entire time trying to get it to work so I could get on BDR.
I don't like knowing her hole cards and she doesn't even ask for advice. But what do other people do? I don't know.
I see the posts about the girlie chat. I'm not an 'A' lister, so I'm usually not in on the conversations. There are a couple of bloggers I've chatted with. I personally don't talk about the hand I'm in. To me its unethical. But what do other people do? I don't know.
The game of poker has one big weakness and that is ethics and guranteeing ehtics. How is this going to be accomplished. You could check the machine running the poker client, but if people are as big a geek as I am, I have several devices they could chat on.
I guess, we just have to believe and play our best.
I think you have to let the chips fall where they may and let Karma screw with the unethical ones, which I think are few and far between!
good post kaja. I thought the same thing when I was watching.
Cardma is a bitch, for sure. I updated some links.
Fuel55 - Next HU you're going down suckah!
Lucko - I'm sure you won't make a bad deal.
Captain - You were never under suspicion. I am a very trusting guy.
Loretta - You're one of those with gender bending names, but I still trust you.
Shit, I trust everyone.
for the record, Swimmom wasn't his backer, fi oyu dont already know.
I dont know that it makes a difference though...
and just a little info on FT.
if two people are on two separate clients, logging in from the sames IP, they will not allow you acces to STT's, or ring games, but they will allow you in to the same MTT...
very wierd indeed
for the record, Swimmom wasn't his backer, fi oyu dont already know.
I dont know that it makes a difference though...
and just a little info on FT.
if two people are on two separate clients, logging in from the sames IP, they will not allow you acces to STT's, or ring games, but they will allow you in to the same MTT...
very wierd indeed
I was wondering when a post like this would hit! :)
about 5 minutes after the event was over I put up my post. I was sure the deal was going to have some ripples. I wanted to make sure that everyone knew Swimmom was not the backer.
there was no one more shocked in the world than me when the deal was offered. If you recall there was about 10 minutes of heads up play where we were both sitting out because I did not know what to do...
I ' ll give you the scoop right here, NO WAY IN HELL would I have ever offerd a chop that sweet to anyone myself. if it came heads up with my own mother I would take the bitch out before offering even a slightest chop. I know it all sounds silly a few days after the fact but anyone that knows me closely and knows my brand of poker knows that I am as cut throat as they come.
NO telling what swimmom was thinking. Maybe it was simply what it was, late and not much in it for her. She already had a seat and if you were watching the game close you could see even at a 2-1 chip lead I was not giving it up easily. I could have made that last a long time and for her it was only an extra $47.50
I would just like to say that chops and deals happen all the time in poker, and just because there happens to be backing arrangements (in Scott's case) or familiarity with other bloggers (e.g. riverchaser players) there's no reason that aspertions on an entire group of people should be cast. And just for the record, I am a riverchasers player both live and online and from what I hear so is swimmom and I could tell you that if I tripped over her on the street I wouldn't know it was swimmom, I don't have a clue who she is. Also the bloggers that we play with are ruthless when it comes to winning cash so I can promise you that the people I'm closet to are the ones who take me out most of the time.
ScottMcM - From reading your blog I know you wouldn't offer a deal like that and I did see Swimmom was not the backer. But I think there was a lot more at stake for her here. It's not only $47.50. It's the leaderboard points (with two wins and some decent showings she would be in contention to take down the monthly TLB 2K seat). And obviously there is the fact of not having you to play against in the TOC. There's a huge incentive in having fewer people at the TOC and anyone who already has a seat needs to try to cut down the field as much as they can. I mean even if she's tired, she can just jam every hand and flip for it, right?
I am happy for you that it went down the way it did. I identify with your family situation and commend you for making the decisions you've made. I hope you not only go to the big show, but make a huge splash while you're there. Good luck!
It's a bit disheartening to see you call out people in this manner.
I will admit to the following:
1. I have been in private girlie chat with fellow bloggers during blogger tournaments.
2. I have been on the telephone with F-Train while playing blogger tournaments.
3. I have been on IRC with a group of bloggers while playing blogger tournaments.
4. I am probably a member of one or more of the blogger "cliques" of which you speak.
Do I think that any of these activities are grounds for questioning if I have ever engaged in less than savory activities that would affect that outcome of a poker tournament / ring game?
No.
But have you planted a seed of doubt in others' heads by writing this?
Perhaps yes.
What is the whole point of the post, other than to question the integrity of people with whom you play on a regular basis?
If you feel that there is suspicious activity going on, you have two options: (1) deal with it or (2) play elsewhere.
Chops happen all the time. People make deals all the time.
Just because it was not the deal that *you* would have made, I don't think that necessarily means that there was collusion.
Nothing is ever certain in poker. Not even a 2:1 chip lead heads up. Not even a 6:1 chip lead heads up. Waffles proved that to all of us.
I knew I would eventually piss some people off. Like I tried to say in my post, I'm not outing anyone and I have no hard evidence against anyone. I play these games because I enjoy the virtual company of these people and I like reading about their experiences. It's also a consistent group which I have reads on and have a familiarity with the way they play.
Did I plant a seed of doubt? I'm not sure I did. Anyone who hadn't thought about this before is probably more naive than me.
The reason for this post was two fold:
1) To try to point out the absurdity of this chop.
2) To put a thought from my head in writing.
I don't think I crossed any lines or offended anyone and if I did, then I'm sorry but that was not my intention.
Anyway, CK, your bloggament record speaks for itself, so you are pretty much in the clear :-)
If you really wanted to discuss the absurdity of of the chop, that's what you should have focused on just that, but instead you brought doubt into the minds of others, and it's one thing to have something in the back of your mind and another to publicly question by name or group whether those people would play objectively against each other. Also you asked people to comment on this post and you sure stooped to some pretty low comments to those who did respond.
It's clearly time to bring out the gimp.
Donkette - I was just giving examples of situations that could or couldn't be marginal. I tried to emphasize that I was not pointing fingers at anyone and any names I used were for illustration purposes only.
I'm sorry if this upsets you, but clearly I am not the only person thinking this way. I mean, I have an option not to play if I feel I am being cheated, right? And I still play when I have the chance.
Fired me right up Kaja!
Comment went too long, so I posted it instead. Hope you take the time to have a read.
You might get to see,
"what-wee-todd-did."
I just wanted all to know that I took out Aniguy tonight in the Hoy, and yes it is my husband, he plays upstairs and I play downstairs, so no colusion here....
What we need now is a battle of bloggers, spouses edition. Couples only!
Sign up OhCaptain and OhCcuntess!
So you Pissed off a B lister or 2.
So someone made a Terrible Deal.
I think you Brought up some interesting Points. I in general trust that most of the Bloggers play on the Level.
Would I have Offered this deal, No I have seem some pretty odd things in these tourneys so not much surprises me.
and is being on the phone soliciting advice any different than IM? I think not.
Go Redsox
Namaste
Good post Kaja. It's your blog, and you can freely voice whatever thoughts or opinions you have here. I too can't possibly believe it's planting the seeds of doubt in anybody's mind. You either trust the bloggers, or you already have that seed. This post would have done nothing to change that.
That said, I trust this group to be honest at the table. We can snipe at each other, talk behind backs, and start big giant high school dramas, but when we get to the felt, I hope the only dishonesty is bluffing and slowplaying.
As for the chop - I'd have taken it in a second. Plus, if I already had a seat and found myself HU, I'd sell it to second without a thought, but for a much better price.
Scott ended up winning?
I'm still shocked from reading that. :)
Good post man. You have no shot at winning anything so don't sweat it. ;).
A couple of years ago, this wouldn't have even been a question. Yes, people have been in chat rooms during games but they never spoke about hands or gave advice on how to play someone.
Seriously, how sad must you be to have a backer in a blogger tournament? If the monkey can afford to buy their way into the dance, they don't deserve to dance.
Girlie chat is such a sexist name.
Zed's dead, baby, Zed's dead.
It's rather easy to see everyone's perspective here, but aren't we really creating unnecessary controversy over bitching over what someone wants to post in their blog?
Ha ha - this "controversy" makes me laugh. Let's see ... we play a game that traditionally has been full of cheats. We sometimes suspect that the RNGs aren't quite so random. We now know what a superuser account is. People know about JJProdigy and ZeeJustin. People have side conversations on girly chat while in a tournament. Some of the bloggers have already chronicled their past history, including various incidents of illegal behavior.
Is it so hard to imagine that things might not always be as innocent as they seem?
Oh yeah - my state's former governor is in prison. The current governor appears to be heading in that direction -- sometime in the next 2-6 years.
Nothing surprises anymore.
i'm late to this party, but just realized you asked a question i could answer. you can log into both ftp and stars from the same ip address as long as the tournament has more than a certain number of players. i can't remember what the number is, but on ftp it won't let you register for the tournament if the number of registered participants is too small and someone from the same ip address is already registered. (stars may be the same, not positive)
i've heard rumors of big time players colluding over im and sharing hole cards and the thought of anyone doign that, much less bloggers, makes me throw up a little. personally i'd be stunned if this was happening in blogger tournaments, but who knows.
as for the chop, i wasn't watching chasers, but i heard about it shortly after, and it just seemed silly. i have no idea why swimmom would do that, perhaps he or she just doesn't care that much about 100 bucks or is a super nice person, etc. etc. sucks for other people who get heads up with someone who is close to being a 2k seat winner for sure, but sounds like scottmc just got lucky and took advantage of it. nothing wrong w/ that on his end as far as i can see.
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